The Paradox of Tolerance

[Papillon]

[Ensign_Steel]

This goes for any extremist ideology. Extremes suck major ass every time.

[Papillon]

Absolutely. Just the leftist dangerous is currently restricted to Venezuela and best Korea

[Ensign_Steel]

I'd say the current rhetoric coming from people claiming to be 'politically on the left' (a.k.a social justice warriors, although I dislike that term) is very worrying and seems to be catching on. It's strange how they don't seem to be realize they're advocating racial segregation, thought crimes, removing freedom of speech and expression, pseudo science instead of actual science, inequality of the sexes, blatant racism etc. Strangely enough, that's pretty much what the other extremes (neo-nazis, alt-right, ultra conservatives...) are advocating for, but for different reasons.

Hence my statement about extremes sucking major ass.

[GeoPat]

If you think about it, it probably all comes down to personality and psyche.  Zealots are zealots.  They just find whatever ideology is available to them and exploit it to ultimate level.  Follower types just follow whatever egomaniac is around or seems the most extreme. (yeah I know these aren't clinical terms).

[Guest Buddydog]

Freedom of speech should be absolute.   Germany for example is starting to become even worse off than East Germany ever was due to restrictions on speech and state sponsored persecutions of Christians and conservatives.  Britain is also becoming an extremist dictatorship with their killings of children and imprisoning of reporters who report on stories the government narrative does not support. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Buddydog

[Pr0z4c]

Freedom of speech cant be absolute. no way should extremist be allowed to preach their intolerant ideas. The same goes for extreme leftism and extreme right.  if you dont agree with far left views you are a ''fascist''. if you dont agree with extreme right ideas you are a traitor. Intolerance should always be untolerated.

I dont know where you get your news @Buddydogplease explain yourself.

[RayderPSG]

That s what Karl Popper said (more or less)  and he was a liberal. 

[Heia Safari!]

Do we as a tolerant society (Speaking of France and European West countries) and as democracies let extremists do their ideas speech?

As for me, it's obvious that it doesn't matter which idea they do speak of, but they are free to do it. Even though I may dislike it.

Quote

I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It - Voltaire (We think)

 

[RayderPSG]

[Papillon]

Buddydog, that is PUREST bullshit. Give me examples, show your research.

You can say about ANYTHING in Germany (except denying the Holocaust, but the rightwingers are busy dismantling this).

Our rightwing parties are really saying the most disgusting stuff all the time, and noone imprisons anyone for it. 

This is the usual routing of rightwingers, to play the poor victim by saying outrageous things and then being miffed when they are told that what they say is BS.

It disgusts me that the likes of Bannon and Grenell are trying to further advance this stupid shit.

Land of the free, where you are being branded as a traitor if you do not do as your president likes you to do? 

 

9 hours ago, Buddydog said:

Freedom of speech should be absolute.   Germany for example is starting to become even worse off than East Germany ever was due to restrictions on speech and state sponsored persecutions of Christians and conservatives.  Britain is also becoming an extremist dictatorship with their killings of children and imprisoning of reporters who report on stories the government narrative does not support. 

 

[Erwin]

12 hours ago, Buddydog said:

Freedom of speech should be absolute.   Germany for example is starting to become even worse off than East Germany ever was due to restrictions on speech and state sponsored persecutions of Christians and conservatives.  Britain is also becoming an extremist dictatorship with their killings of children and imprisoning of reporters who report on stories the government narrative does not support. 

What substance are you using Buddy, it's taking you really high.

[Papillon]

I really want to learn about the state-sponsored persecutions of Christians and Conservatives, I just might participate 

[Yehiel]

okay, i understand poppers idea. but also that it's inconsequent - leading to: what do 'we' see in tolerance? what are our expectations when it comes to it? especially in germany (and there i see some of buddydogs points) the vocabulary has gotten more and more exaggerated and flat at the same time. words that once have meant something are now overused but thrown out heavily every second sentence in a pseudo-political conversation / discussion, just to degrade others but in the end not describing the 'real issue' in a suitable way.

and where does tolerance start, at all? noone can say in general, maybe only for him- or herself, but that's it. tolerance is live and let live. of course we are humans living in a contesting world where endless opinions and attitudes exist, for an infinite amount of reasons.

tolerance maybe starts with an interest and understanding of why people are seeing things in a different way than i do. but if you look at self-appointed 'tolerants' it is quite often that they completely aren't. it's just an idea, an image in a frame what has to be understood in tolerance. these kind of people are somehow skewed, so is the term itself.

overall difficult but interesting topic. my two cents.

Edited June 6, 2018 by Yehiel

[Guest Buddydog]

Evidence in support claims: Arrest of homseschool parents for religious reasons.  https://www.thelocal.de/20170406/german-parents-go-to-eu-court-after-police-seized-kids-in-homeschool-raid. Compulsory schooling in a state school in a society that promotes nudism (https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/naked-germany/index.html) is absurd, because it forces individual families to conform to the state's values on morality and ethics.  Forced compulsion in a particular progressive framework is no different that mandating that all students participate in a Hitler youth.

 

As for Britain (It is all over the news, here is an analysis: 

 

Regarding British Children:  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/alfie-evans-was-given-4-drugs-just-before-he-died-report

 

 

Now, we must analyze the totality of German and British actions.  Allowing the enormous influx of Islamic refugees, which has led to an increase in crime, while silencing traditional voices indicates a deliberate progressive shift by the government to essentially annihiliate its own culture. This has nothing to do with Islam.  I am a huge fan of Islam, which might do Europe some good considering the moral degradation of Europe.  When we ban something for what we perceive to be extremist, then we can only reaffirm our own biases and set inadvertently establish our own extremist system.  Germany, for example, has had a shift of extremist over the last century, with Communist to Nazi revolutions, to the now idendity politics, progressive Neo-Marixt view forced on society. 

 

Quote

I really want to learn about the state-sponsored persecutions of Christians and Conservatives, I just might participate

Yes, perhaps I had a late night exaggeration there, but it is on the precipice. Your statement of approval of such an action indicates this intolerance.  If I was to advocate state-sponsored arrests of gay rapists here, I would probably be banned.  Just shows the double standards of tolerance of everything but traditional people groups. 

[Papillon]

You would not recognize irony if it rode on a blazing meteorite above you eh?

Germany, neo-Marxist? 

So to your research:

https://www.thelocal.de/20170406/german-parents-go-to-eu-court-after-police-seized-kids-in-homeschool-raid

Well, other than in the US it is the law in Germany to send your kid to a school, homeschooling is not a legitimate alternative. You break the law, you get punished. They are using the tools our system gives them, and we will see what the EUGH decides.

--> No persecution. It's this the law, and it's going it's way.

2 hours ago, Buddydog said:

Compulsory schooling in a state school in a society that promotes nudism

Now where is the connection between compulsory schooling and nudism being an accepted freetime activity? Is nudism something children learn in school? I did not. Please explain. Until thenl.

--> Trolling. Trying to make up connections where there are none. 

2 hours ago, Buddydog said:

Forced compulsion in a particular progressive framework is no different that mandating that all students participate in a Hitler youth.

Hitler Youth was a quasi compulsory organization. There is nothing like this now. 

--> Trolling. Making hilarious comparisons for the sake of a poor argument.

2 hours ago, Buddydog said:

Regarding British Children:  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/alfie-evans-was-given-4-drugs-just-before-he-died-report

You should have mentioned that Alfie Evans was a 2 year old with a terminal, non reversible neurodegenerative disorder that had destroyed his brain, and his parents were desperate to try other therapies, while the NHS considered keeping him artificially alive was inhumane and cruel. Life support was terminated on Apr. 23rd. 

Lifesitenews is a conservative, pro-life outlet with a radical Catholic reactionary stance, so naturally it is biased.

2 hours ago, Buddydog said:

Allowing the enormous influx of Islamic refugees, which has led to an increase in crime

Sources please. 

The number of crimes in Germany has been reduced by 10 % from last year, which is the highest reduction since 1993: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article175679108/Polizei-Statistik-Kriminalitaet-geht-in-Deutschland-so-stark-zurueck-wie-seit-1993-nicht.html

300.680 suspects were migrants or refugees, which is -40 %.

--> Again, trolling

As funny as this is for a time, let me say that I am a fan of the tolerance paradox.

 

[Ensign_Steel]

Sheesh, I fucking knew this was gonna start all over again...

Well, one part made me kek and it was this one:

8 hours ago, Buddydog said:

a society that promotes nudism

Seriously, what on earth is your problem with naked people? I just can't see what the big taboo is. I mean, nobody is born wearing clothes. Then again, I'm from the country whose biggest gift to the world along with dank memes is the sauna. While bathing in a sauna, everyone is naked, all ranks and titles disappear - some say even gender disappears and for a short time is replaced with one universal gender - 'the sauna bather'. In a sauna, business partners, bosses and subordinates etc. can relax and talk freely - get to know the real person instead of the puffed up and stone cold businessman.

[Papillon]

5 hours ago, Ensign_Steel said:

get to know the real person instead of the puffed up and stone cold businessman.

Mayyyybe just maybe, that is often a problem certain ppl have with nudism. Peel away the layers and wall you build around yourself, tear off the mask and fake picture you try to build of yourself, and be honest with yourself just for a jew minutes..

 

[Spieler4]

I Sometimes wonder how much more tolerance can be given Hooliganism in Europe. These football/soccer terrorists allways seems to get away with the worst crap behavior without any big concequence

[Ensign_Steel]

21 hours ago, Spieler4 said:

I Sometimes wonder how much more tolerance can be given Hooliganism in Europe. These football/soccer terrorists allways seems to get away with the worst crap behavior without any big concequence

That is indeed strange and I see the same kind of special treatment being handed to those violent scumbags in antifa. I'm all for tolerating stuff that doesn't (or at least shouldn't) cause trouble to others. You know, like what ethnicity you are, what sexuality you are, what your political views are and so forth. Violence, destruction of public or someone else's property and ideologies which include discrimination and/or killing others on the other hand are things that I feel shouldn't be tolerated. 

[Humledrik]

OK some perspective. The Tommy Robinson demos in London yesterday led to a grand total of four arrests.

Four arrests. That's all.

Now I'm not an Antifa militant - I don't attend demos etc... but I am strongly anti-fascist. Yet how can anyone claim that the police are supporting left-wing demonstrators over right wing demonstrators after what happened in London yesterday? If left wing demonstrators had been as violent, we'd have seen arrests probably approaching triple figures.

Only dawn raids and arrests based on video footage will convince me that there is no police bias here. And it's not the one may of you seem to be thinking.

 

[Papillon]

Even in Germany, the state still has a very very keen eye on any left wing activity, especially here in Hamburg where I live.

which is hilarious, because the worst they do is torching vehicles, which I totally don't endorse. But compared to the violence our growing right wing militants are spewing forth, it's a joke.

The state is ever blind on the right eye.

[Ensign_Steel]

I don't care what wing someone stand for If their modus operandi includes violence or destruction of property. In my eyes, those guys are automatically scumbags and should just stay at home, wrecking their own shit. I mentioned antifa since they tend to be the violent cunts here and so many douchebags in charge turn a blind eye to them while keeping the low-iq monkeys with shaved heads under tight scrutiny. There are of course those that do the exact opposite - keeping a close eye on antifa while letting the Nordic Resistance off the hook. Then again, it's nothing new that politicians do everything half assed.

[Humledrik]

I saw some footage of extreme police overreaction from the Hamburg protests Papi. I don't claim to know what happened in this case, but it seems to me that often riots get started when police overreact. 
Violence against innocent private citizens and their property can never be justified of course. Nobody in their right mind could even think that this would even further the cause - it has the exact opposite effect.
What's really disturbing is that every fringe group has its own definition of the establishment and its own interpretation of the establishment's reaction to its own agenda. But call me leftist if you want (as a small business owner, that would make me laugh actually) but if the ultra-rich stopped fixing the game to suit their own interests, put money into improving society instead of tearing it down to suit their own ends and stopped ensuring that they win every single match, then my educated guess would be that a lot of the fringe activity on both sides would die down. Economic liberals will argue "yes but that will stop innovation". Rubbish. True innovators will have a better shot at making it to the top. The ultra rich will still be filthy rich and every one would be a lot happier. It defies belief that this class of people hasn't learned from a global history that is a long list of people's revolutions.
 

Edited June 14, 2018 by Humledrik

[Ensign_Steel]

I absolutely agree with you on the problem regarding the so-called game rigging. For example, our politicians love to flaunt with the generous grants our government gives to businesses in order to help them grow, but the truth is that these grants only go to the largest companies. All contract work etc. goes to the companies owned by the friends of the people in charge.

I wouldn't call myself a member of any wing. As you might know, I'm a small business owner as well and I support some evil lefty-socialist ideals, like providing everyone with basic income, no matter if they can or can't work, free healthcare and free education etc. while at the same time I support an optimized, heavily automatized and small government.